"sdesros" is Stephane Desrosiers (Java Guru)
"Fleecy" is Fleecy Moss of Amiga Inc.
"TA" is Gary Peake of Team AMIGA.
"DrJekyl" is Gus Haines, a Vapor beta tester and Amiga Help Team Member.
The others are visitors to the channel.
sdesros |TA: if worse comes to worse, I could field some of the
|non-AmigaNG Java questions... (Not that I'm in a rush or
|anything.)
pantheon |sdesros: how close is AWT to completion on the Amiga?
sdesros |pantheon: I can't really tell you since I'm not building it. The
|closest I've seen is AmigaAWT. You can go to
|(www.spirit.net.au/~jamesd/AWT-Beta/index.html). It's only
|1.0.2 compatible and are missing a few snags.
ExiE |panthen: not so much *GOOD* amiga news page exist :)
TA |DrJekyl will keep the queue. If you have a question for Stephan
|please send a ? to DrJekyl.
sdesros |TA: Maybe I should introduce myself before we start?
TA |sdesros: Yes, please do Stephan.
sdesros |Okay, for those of you who are wondering "Who's this Stephane
|guy", here goes.
sdesros |I'm a typical Amiga user who has been programming in Java for
|about 2 years now. I've tried out some of the current publicly
|available Amiga Java Virtual Machines.
Perty |sdesros: You have any programs I can look at?
sdesros |Perty: You can check out http://connexions.ocas.on.ca/ . It's a
|software package I co-developped with 3 other people. It's 100%
|coded in Java and tested for consistency on Windows 95, NT, AIX
|and Solaris.
TA |DrJekyl will keep the queue. If you have a question for Stephan
|please send a ? to DrJekyl.
sdesros |Thanks.
sdesros |Perty: It's a distance-education/class-
|management/automatic-test-delivery-and-correcting system.
TA |DrJekyl will keep the queue. If you have a question for Stephan
|please send a ? to DrJekyl.
sdesros |I'll look at it at school. I'm at my AMiga now :-(
TA |sdesros: Is Java hard to learn and what do you suggest someone
|interested in Java do about books? Buy the Sun Books?
sdesros |TA: It's a tough call really. Books tend to get outdated quite
|quickly. Java is constantly evolving. There are so many on-line
|tutorials that anyone with C/C++ experience can learn Java easily.
TA |DrJekyl will keep the queue. If you have a question for Stephan
|please send a ? to DrJekyl.
DrJekyl |TarasD: ask
sdesros |TA: Bottom line, you're best bet is to check out
|"www.javasoft.com" grab yourself a copy of the "API", sign up at
|the "Java Developper's Connection"
|(http://developer.java.sun.com/) and see what information they
|offer.<ga>
TarasD | how good is inbult net fetures of java
sdesros |TarasD: What exactly do you mean?
DrJekyl |queue = Strahd Yoshi Chit nuck
sdesros |(Sorry DrJ... Can you voice TarasD. :P)
Strahd |What are the actually avalaible amiga JVM and are they any good?
DrJekyl |sdesros: :)
TarasD |well java has standard socket classes how complete are they say
|for bulding a web browser
TarasD |and other clients
DrJekyl |queue = Strahd Yoshi Chit nuck DrFraggle
TA |sdesros: Did you get that one?
sdesros |TarasD: There are quite a few interresting classes like the URL
|class that actually opens connections. You can also licence their
|HotJavaBean if you really want a pre-built Browser. FTP, Mail
|clients and classes are available through third parties, but if
|you know the protocol, you can build them yourself. Your only
|problem is with non-TCP/IP networking software software.<ga>
DrJekyl |ppl place a # when you finish your question please
Strahd |What are the actually avalaible amiga JVM and are they any good?
sdesros |I know of only two that are available. Kaffee (go to
|members.tripod.com/~Politikill/) but it doesn't have any GUI
|classes working. You can get AmiAWT (it's kaffee), it's a little
|flakey, incomplete and only JDK1.0.2 but it works pretty well I
|find. (http://www.spirit.net.au/~jamesd/AWT- Beta/index.html).
Yoshi |sdesros: For web pages, what's the advantage of Java over
|Perl/CGI? #
TA |DrJekyl will keep the queue. If you have a question for Stephan
|please send a ? to DrJekyl.
DrJekyl |Queue = Chit nuck DrFraggle Perty
sdesros |It depends on exactly what you're looking to do. There are Java
|servlets and Java Appletts... Servlets run on the server side
|and act like CGI scripts, except that every time someone runs a
|servlet, the JVM runs a thread instead of a complete process)...
|(applets comming up.)
Chit |sdesros: Concerning JAVA & REBOL, aren't they a lot alike and
|where will REBOL figure into the gameplan with AmigaNG? #
DrJekyl |Queue = nuck DrFraggle Perty
sdesros |Applets are on the client's side. They give you the ability to
|open Database connections, make animations & simulations, feed in
|live data.<ga> Now for Chit's question.
TA |Chit: From talking to AI at Amiwest they very much like the looks
|of Rebol.
sdesros |I must admit I'm not exactly too sure about Rebol myself.
|However, rebol seems more like a scripting language and more
|accessible to people. Java still needs to be compiled.
TA |sdesros: Correct, REBOL is more like arexx than Java.
sdesros |Java can be used to build full applications whereas Rebol seems
|more geared to adding features and supplementing the OS.
|<ga>
nuck |sderos: forgive my ignorance... is it currently possible to
|program Java 1.1 on Amiga? If not, will it be?
sdesros |It's not ignorance. :P There are no JVM's publicly available to
|run pure 1.1 Java code on the Amiga. Kaffee might but it won't
|support the AWT/GUI. I spoke with the author of AmiAWT and he
|plans to put full 1.1 support ASAP.
sdesros |You're alternatives are so far running another OS (Unix based) or
|going through Emulation. (Not sure how the JVM is for Mac.) On
|the PC you can now run Java on top of DOS using JavaPC.
sdesros |<ga>
DrFraggle |Do you see any big applications ported to java soon? How do you
|think about the importance of java in the future? #
TA |DrJekyl will keep the queue. If you have a question for Stephan
|please send /msg DrJekyl ? to DrJekyl.
sdesros |There are some interresting applications already. (Nothing big)
|but things like WinZip-like tools and actual wordprocessors. The
|software package that I'm building at work itself is pretty huge
|and will tie into a centralized Java-based server system that
|will be used for 25 colleges and vocational schools around my
|home province.
TA |In answer to running Java on the Amiga, Steve told you about the
|Classic Amiga. Amiga Inc also plans to have Java on the AmigaNG.
Darxide_TA|How rude, defacto just left without saying *anything* to us!
sdesros |Java right now really is "big" and people are seeing it mostly
|for building independent clients to plug into their servers.
|(Replacing Visual Basic.)<ga>
Darxide_TA|How rude, Worzel just left without saying *anything* to us!
Perty |Two q's: What is the fastest way to draw realtime gfx with Java?
|Manipulating memorysourceimages(sp?) and just show/draw them as
|buffered images, for lets say a realtime bumpmapper as I have
|seen on some pages? Is the AOS5Dev comming with Java in someway
|and if so in what way? #
sdesros |Perty: I haven't used Images much. But my guess is using some of
|the built-in functionality in the new Swing API (Java based
|components, it incorporates Java2D graphics library with all
|sorts of transformations.) And I wouldn't know if OS5dev will
|include Java, but I believe that it should (since Dr. Havemoss
|did mention that it was in OS5prod.)
sdesros |<ga>
Revenant |sdesros: How much help and interest are Sun showing in the
|current Amiga's JVM development and for the AmigaNG? i.e. are
|they keen or dragging their heels supporting the developers? #
sdesros |As far as I know, I haven't heard anything from Sun. (Please
|remember, I don't work for Amiga Inc. :)) However, Sun always
|seems interrested in spreading Java.
sdesros |<ga>
Chit |So that I am somewhat clear on JAVA, it is a complete programming
|language to possibly replace like C, Cobol, RPG, etc. ? I
|understand the basics of it, but have not investigated the
|details of the language. It is suppose to change programming as
|we now know it right? #
sdesros |Okay... Java is composed of two things. A) The JavaVirtual
|Machine (a processor emulator) and b) a programming language.
|The first is the "Compile-Once- Run-Anywhere" aspect of the Java.
| The second is an improvement (I find) over C++ syntaxe.
sdesros |It's nothing mind-bongling different than what's out there
|already, but it's got so much momentum because it's similar to
|C++ and it's "multiplatform".<ga>
sdesros |The Java Virtual Machine is an emulator. And like most
|emulators, it takes processor time yes. But at the same time
|emulators are getting better. Sun itself has developped "HotSpot
|Technology" which supposedly makes Java programs run as fast as
|compiled C++ code... (Much faster then Compiled Visual C++ code.
|;) ).
DrJekyl |Queue = Perty
sdesros |HotSpot is a combination of faster Garbage Collection routines
|and code optimisation routines.
sdesros |<ga>
Perty |Hmmmm... got some answares but... What about Hot Spot... I have
|red that it shuold be very good and fast but what is it? Optmized
|JVM or?
sdesros |Okay, time for the details... :P
sdesros |First time Sun decided to speed up the JVM, was with Run-Time
|Compilation. (It would compile something to native language the
|first time it ran that segment of a program. When it would
|return to that segment, it would run the compiled part.)
sdesros |Then they realized that sometimes that was actually slower.
sdesros |So they made a smart JVM that compiles the code only when it
|would help and not hinder.
sdesros |Then they sped up some other things that would help like Garbage
|Collection...
sdesros |I still have to see it myself though.<ga>
Perty |What about Merapi? Any signs/news of that yet? #
sdesros |I followed Merapi for a while. The most I've heard is that the
|author was planning on releasing it similarly as the author of
|AmiAWT. (Incomplete but fonctional while he was completing it.).
| I haven't seen it yet though.
sdesros |<ga>
santa |What is your involvement with the combination of Amiga and Java?
|Are you working on special AMIGA ports/projects?#
sdesros |Not directly no... I *will* hopefully be working on some things
|(soon) that might be a link to both though.<ga>
Chit |sdesros: So what is needed and what are those developers doing
|to make JAVA work with the Amiga? A compiler or interpeter or
|both? From what you have said, the language is not at all
|processor dependent? Is JAVA most efficiently run under
|Unix/Linux environment now?#
sdesros |Java basically requires a Java Virtual Machine. The "emulator"
|part of the equation. What's taking it's time with the Amiga
|Ports is the GUI aspect. The first generation of Java GUI (the
|AWT classes) require the JVM to have the OS's GUI components talk
|to the Java GUI components. With their new GUI "Swing"/JFC you
|only need a generic component on the Native OS's side.
sdesros |<ga>
Perty |Is there some sort of Assembler/disassembler for Java? I really
|would like to try out real bytecode coding :- )#
sdesros |I've heard that Sun had licenced a C++ developement kit. I don't
|see why Assembly/Dissenbly would be impossible...
sdesros |<ga>
SupaTroopa|I'm quite used to creating little applications for comms in basic
|and such like on my current amiga. should I be looking at
|learning java to make best use of comms on the new Amigap
|latforrm
SupaTroopa|platform that is
sdesros |It won't hurt... It'll gear you to Object Oriented Programming
|(if you haven't done so already). As long as you're not working
|on heavy CPU intensive applications it should suit your needs.
|I'm not exactly sure what Aminga Inc. has in plan for Java. I
|only know that it'll be included with OS5. <ga>
elho |Do You know if any of the Amiga JVM ports is planned to be done
|for PPC, too? Would it be easy, ie. for kaffe more or less "just"
|recompiling?#
sdesros |I don't know of any. But I don't see why not. However, I'm not
|sure if their will be a significant speed increase since Java
|still needs to talk to the underlying OS for networking, GUI, and
|other things. Maybe H&P could answer that question, if they can
|Merapi out. <ga>
Neodym |When will we see a working release of Java anyway? How fast will
|it be (i.e. PPC?) and will it cover all Java specs?
Neodym |(ga)
sdesros |All I know is that AmiAWT is the most complete one I've seen for
|Amiga. It's probably going to be included with both OS5dev...
|<ga>
Nutello |Aren't Java classes a bit too inconsistent already? E.g. the same
|method is named differently in different classes (setLabel,
|setText) or caps are used differently (Hashtable, HashCode). Not
|to mention functions for I/O and conversions. I find it to be
|quite painful... and it kinda sucks if you consider that Java's a
|brand new design (and things can only get worse, some would
sdesros |Hmm... I don't tend to get lost. The methods in the subclasses
|tend to depend on their super classes. Swing seems more consitent
|though, but a little more confusing to get started in.<ga>
ck |Hi! I know that you can't tell me much about the Java
|implementation in OS5, but what could you tell me as a developer
|that I can get going with now so that I may be able to work on
|OS5Dev as quickly as possible?
sdesros |I'm not exactly sure what your question is. But all I know is
|I've been told that "Java is a great place to start in
|programming for the AmigaNG"... Other then that, you might want
|to brush up on C++.
sdesros |<ga>
Perty |Are you going to buy the AOS5Dev machine? Planning to make some
|software or likes for AOS5Prod? What's your opinion on the Dev
|machine? #
sdesros |Well, my only PC (which I use for Java Programming at home) needs
|an upgrade anyway. My A4000 is starting to get used a lot by my
|roomate. So I'm probably going for an OS5dev. However, I'll
|reserve my opinion on if until I actually see it in action. (But
|it does seem promising for a stepping stone IMHO.)<ga>
SupaTroopa|I'm not an Amiga programmer for a living. Will learning Java for
|the Amiga be identical as learning it for the PC based things?
|ie: If I do learn OO, will I be able to use it elsewhere? I have
|currently only Mainframe Cobol skills.. Naturally I'd like work
|to buy Amigas :-), but they may not...
SupaTroopa|done
sdesros |Definatly. Learning Java like any other language can only help.
|OO skills are tranferable and desired. <ga>
Chit |Since JAVA was created under a UNIX environment, would that be
|the best spot for learning/working with it for us (Amiga) now
|instead of the "bastard" version in Windoze? #
sdesros |Working in Unix gives you a more stable OS to work from...
|There's no other advantage, unless you go for a UltraSparc based
|workstation. The JVM is supposedly faster because the UltraSparc
|is a closer match to the Java "CPU". Oh and you can run a unix
|environement on the Amiga. :) <ga>
Rocambole |Do you have any knowledge of when java version of IBrowse or the
|FinalBrowser will be out. And have you been asked for help from
|any of the authors
Rocambole |?#
TA |Java and other OO languages are going to be very important for
|OS5DEV and OS5PROD.
sdesros |Well, I'm more of an expert in programming for Java and not
|programming Java Virtual Machines. The only help I can really
|give them is testing out the JVM's. As for Browsers supporting
|JAVA, I haven't a clue. It will most likely be a little after we
|get a working JVM to tie it to. :)<ga>
fleecy |I am SO sorry guys and gals - the pressure of having a new baby.
sdesros |fleecy's here. *phiew*. :P
TA |DrJekyl has the queue. If you have a question for Stephan please
|send /msg DrJekyl ? to DrJekyl.
sdesros |JMan: Well... It's fairly simple with Java. You build a class
|that extends a thread and go. The problem with Audio is that
|it's very limited in Java for now.
sdesros |<ga>
DrJekyl |anymore questions out there ?
fleecy |I am only hear to talk about Java and Corba ;-)
Dave_C |Now is the time for the Imapct on AMIGA_NG questions
Revenant |sdesros: Java seams to still only be a buzz word, I've heard that
|Corel Office is available in java format (or about to be) and I
|know of Document management system in Java. Do you know of any
|java product that is definately available that isnt just a
|gimmick?
sdesros |Revenant: At the risk of sounding like a broken record...
|There's the one I'm working on, along with quite a few others.
|There's Java Web Server, Browser, WinZip client, wordprocessors,
|satellite tracking software, etc. Go to "www.javasoft.com" and
|I'm sure you'll find alot. <ga>
Nutello |fleecy: are you guys at AI in touch with anybody about CORBA
|support under OS5? GA
fleecy |The whole CORBA issue is something I am pushing. Because of the
|nature of CORBA and the DC priamry markets of AInc, we are
|looking at some form of MicroCORBA, providing the CORBA bus and
|basic services but allowing others to build upon them.
Laurie |I'm wondering what everyone thinks about JFC as a model for Amiga
|NG gui components?
fleecy |There are many good examples of freeware and GPL orbs, such as
|BBN's Corbus (www.bbn.com) and most impressively Objectspace's
|Voyager
sdesros |Laurie: I myself have just begun to work with JFC. I'm used to
|AWT but I kind of like it. I can't really compare it to
|something else (apart from XWindows/Motif) because I haven't
|programmed many GUI's myself. :)
fleecy |Swing has been a great step in the right direction but we don't
|want to end up too tied to what Sun tell us - if Sun open up all
|the way then we may see the revolution we have all been looking
|for.
Chit |Whoa, slow down a minute, fleecy, explain CORBA to us that are
|new or at least a little fuzzy to the term please! #
fleecy |I'll tell you what - as I screwed up, I will offer to do another
|IRC on CORBA - Idon't want to hijack Stephane's gig.... and I
fleecy |have to go in a minute as well.
SupaTroopa|Someone made mention of a "os5dev" machine earlier, it was going
|to replace their current machine. Do I have to get one of these
|to , how much will they cost, is there an alternative? Is there
|anything else you guys can tell me about it.
SupaTroopa|done
fleecy |I can answer all Amiga Inc questions at the monthly IRC for that
|purpose - which Team Amiga organises. This is a JAva IRC
Perty |fleecy: What about Javasupport in AOS5Dev? I read somewhere it
|will be there but in what way? Native AOS5 or under MS-DOS or
|something?
fleecy |We are looking at a kernal partner that already has a native JVM.
|If one exists, we would be fools not to take advantage of it.
fleecy |Ppl, I am really sorry for my rudeness - I have to go now -
|please check the website for the monthly TA meeting I get beaten
|up at, and we will organise a CORBA one as well.
Philbo |fleecy: We know that Java will be supported but will there be
|any support in OS5 for transparent 'Classic Amiga' emulation,
|just as PowerMacs run old Mac software? Or even PC emulation as
|standard to help entice PC users to the new system?
TA |We will have an Amiga Inc conference later this month. Stay tuned
|...
fleecy |Philbo - emulataion is very important for us - we want a product
|that already has apps, even if they are classic apps being
|emulated - of course you can say goodbye to most of the metal
|banging ones but we are looking seriously into it.
Asha |I hear a lot about JAVA for OS5/DEV/PROD, what about for the
|Classic Amiga? Any information?
DrJekyl |Queue = Perty
TA |DrJekyl has the queue. If you have a question for Stephan or
|Fleecy ABOUT JAVA please send /msg DrJekyl ? to DrJekyl.
fleecy |Asha - Hey lovely 8-) You know as much as I do - Merapi, the
|Finale-Dev thing and one or two others.
sdesros |Well, Kaffee and AmiAWT are the closest so far... I've given the
|URLs out already. I can give them out before I go.
Perty |sdesros: What's the best java environement IYHO? Symantec Visual
|Caf�?
sdesros |I use the good 'ol JDK myself... I've tried Visual Cafe, Sun's
|Java Workshop 2.0, PowerJ and none of them really impressed me.
|However Visual Cafe and PowerJ come with some nice new classes.
|:)<ga>
DrJekyl |Anyone else have any questions ?
fleecy |One thing that is impressive is that JDK1.2 will have a full ORB
|within it, with a full IDL2Java pre- compiler, so for those of
|you who want to play with it, you can and for free ;-)
elho |fleecy: What role will JAVA play in AmigaNG?
elho |Just supported or will os parts use it?
fleecy |elho:A very important one. If it wasn't for some immaturity and
|the way Sun keeps invalidating classes with each release we may
|have used it totally. it is developing at a phenomenol rate. For
|us the key is it provides implementation independence
sdesros |fleecy: What's the URL to your page?
fleecy |elho : no, we will use C/C++ for the OS. Java at the moment is
|strictly for the application layer
fleecy |sdesrod : which one?
sdesros |The one that states you'll have info on your monthly IRC
|conference, etc...
TA |http://web.wt.net/~gpeake
TA |http://web.wt.net/~gpeake/daily.html
TA |Perty: We are working fast and furious at it now.
Nutello |fleecy: has the new programming model created by the ICOA
|workgroup been examined at AI? Has it been accepted yet
|(partially? fully? not at all?)? GA
fleecy |Allan has looked at the model and was impressed. He doesn't want
|to pass any comments on it until the kernal partner is agreed yet
|because depending on which way we go could have major
|implications.
TA |We only have time for a couple of more questions for Stephane.
ShuFlie |fleecy: are you thinking of a JIT compiler for java or running
|precompiled source?
fleecy |I'm going - sorry Stephane - see you all later
sdesros |Thanks for comming FLeecy. :)
TA |Thanks Fleecy and Stephane!
TA |Sorry guys, both of our guests have other committments.
Rocambole |we look forward to the next session
[X_MaN] |yes Thank you fleecy for your help, it is greatly appreciated,
|and I am sure we all look forward to your next conference
sdesros |It's been fun guys. Hopefully I can talk about more complete
|JVM's next time :P
TA |Thanks to DrJekyl for handliung the queue!!
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